Dishonest Sales Tactics and Behavior?

As most of you know, there is currently a big uproar regarding Invicta's use of "Swiss Made/Swiss" and defects related to the Dubois Depraz module on their Speedway Elite. I am of the opinion that this tactic of using smoke and mirrors to disguise and sometimes lie to customers is in very poor taste.



My thoughts on these issues (and I find this pretty interesting) -

• Swiss Made / Swiss - This was clearly deceptive practices. I have read posts where owners have opened their watches that are marked "Swiss made" only to find a Chinese movement in the watch. That in my book is just wrong.
  

• Dubois Depraz Module - The issue at hand comes down to ownership. It is clear to me that initially Invicta and related parties are not ready to accept complete ownership for the cause of these defective watches. There has been plenty of finger pointing and then there was a clear message that the modules were not purchased directly from DD and were obtained through other channels. This is just bad business. Honesty is the cornerstone of a reputable business and it is clearly lacking with Invicta and its partners.
  

There have been other instances of controversy lately (the whole SAS/Crux situation, the Dievas/Kobold case issue...), but this seems to be a very hot topic lately!



With that being said, what do you guys think of this situation?

Mark,

From what I read elsewhere they as much as said that they were going to Scream and Yell at DD for their incompetence and that other watch companies had had the same trouble. Problem is that when Koi got in touch directly with DD they had never done bidness with that Yellow Company.

Basically, from a technical perspective they and the people they outsource to case their watches just didn't read the tech sheet on the module. They forgot to add in a spacer. Incredibly basic oversight that any competent watchmaker that has worked with those would have known. Also, if they had purchased DIRECTLY from DD that would have been worked out by their tech people based on the proposed case and such.

My guess is that the movements have been seriously damaged by these incredibly elementary mistakes. The owners should, in my opinion, get a full refund and compensation for all their troubles.

Not waiting on that to happen though........

Just my opinions based on what I have read in public sources.

-Robert

Actually Mark, and Im not defending Invicta, but the watches that were opened up, to reveal china movements, were watches marked "swiss". So far , no watches that have been marked swiss made, have been revealed to have chinese movements. Now, im not saying it cant be done, it just hasnt been proven yet. My understanding , not being part of the swiss federation, Us customs does not regulate the word Swiss on the dial as having any meaning, so , Invicta , as the decievers as they are, used that to get to try and market their "swiss" marked watches, as being swiss made. If it says swiss on the dial, its swiss made, and that is what they said continually, that is until people started opening up case backs.

Invicta, has to be one of the shadiest companies out there when it comes to this stuff. Im sure , some other cheap companies might do this, and sure, lots of high end companies still outsource some of their product, but they still follow the regulations set in force by the federation to meet the swiss made on the dial standards. They even have reserves now that are marked swiss, wich means, they have chinese movements, wich should tell anyone that , reserve, is nothing more than a marketing slogan anymore, and means nothing. Us WIS, we do our research, we read up on forums, so we know these things, and find them out. But I didnt know this years ago, and the general buying public, walking into a store, or watching shop, thinks they are buying a swiss made product, and have no idea what the truth is, .....and considering Invicta continues to practice these methods, only tells you that they know their product is crap, because , if they were good products, you wouldnt need to lie, the product would stand on its own, no matter where it was made, ..........like NFW for example, he makes no qualms about telling yo where they are produced and made, they are made in japan and china, and are still a very good quality watch, that people love to buy and wear. If Invicta , upped there QC and actuallly made sure the watches were put together and shipped out as should be, and just said, hey all of our watches are made in Japan or China, ......as long as people knew the truth and got a good product, they would still buy em..........course, you cant try and sell a $2,000 sub noma that is made in China, and thats where the decieving and greed comes in, and thats why they lie and market them as Swiss, so they can get as much money as possible........

Unfortunately, it seems to be business as usual. There are plenty of other issues of controversy, but Invicta seems to be ahead of the pack regarding problems, questionable business tactics, etc. When I first got into watches Invicta was the brand that got me started. Even back then there was always rumblings from the masses. It kind of got on my nerves initially; I just thought there were a handful of trouble makers stirring up the pot for what ever reason they could find and Invicta seemed to be the subject of choice. As time went on I started to see that there was alot of truth to the negative posts regarding QC, problems with the Subaquas, the Lupah Revolution etc. So it definitely seems like business as usual.


Personally, I have never had a single issue with any of my Invicta stuff. Some of my favorites are Invictas, the original Grand Diver auto, the SAN ll 3 hand. But..will I buy another? Probably not. No...definitely not.

If it is OK to respond to Invicta and WG issues I will, if not please delete.

I think this is BS what they have done and are still doing. It is dishonest and the AG or NAD should step in.

However, I think anyone who buys an Invicta deserves what they get. It is the responsibility of every consumer to make informed decisions as to how they spend their money. When you buy a watch on Canal Street and get ripped off you have no one to blame but yourself. This is no different. When you see thread after thread outlining in detail the shoddy business practices of Invicta and their ShopNBC representatives and still drop a grand on a watch, well, you have entered the equivalent of cyber-Canal Street. I try to steer my purchases to reputable watch manufactures and their representative. I can buy the same movements, if I choose, and have confidence in my after purchase support and CS by doing so.

I could go on and on as I feel very strongly about this issue and this is MY position and MY position only. I really don't want to debate this with anyone as my mind is made up. As I stated, this is each persons individual responsibility. As I have said many times, Buy what you like, wear what you want.

OK, my rant is over!

tattoo chef wrote:

Actually Mark, and Im not defending Invicta, but the watches that were opened up, to reveal china movements, were watches marked "swiss". So far , no watches that have been marked swiss made, have been revealed to have chinese movements. Now, im not saying it cant be done, it just hasnt been proven yet. My understanding , not being part of the swiss federation, Us customs does not regulate the word Swiss on the dial as having any meaning, so , Invicta , as the decievers as they are, used that to get to try and market their "swiss" marked watches, as being swiss made. If it says swiss on the dial, its swiss made, and that is what they said continually, that is until people started opening up case backs.

My mistake Don...you are correct!

The issue was marketing the watches as swiss made where they were not. This was done throught misinformation provided on the ShopNBC air. I suppose that it could have been a slip or mistake. But there certainly is no mistake when the watches get opened up by the owners and there is a Chinese movement in them with Swiss on the dial...





Now that is no mistake...it is a flat out lie. BTW - I saw these at Alain's place and found it to be very disturbing...the company KNEW that the information provided was wrong! I do not blame ShopNBC for this one or the presenters (Michael or Jim), because there is no way that they could have known without opening the watch (crazier things have happened, but I am willing to give them both the benefit of the doubt on this one)!

andrema wrote:

tattoo chef wrote:

Actually Mark, and Im not defending Invicta, but the watches that were opened up, to reveal china movements, were watches marked "swiss". So far , no watches that have been marked swiss made, have been revealed to have chinese movements. Now, im not saying it cant be done, it just hasnt been proven yet. My understanding , not being part of the swiss federation, Us customs does not regulate the word Swiss on the dial as having any meaning, so , Invicta , as the decievers as they are, used that to get to try and market their "swiss" marked watches, as being swiss made. If it says swiss on the dial, its swiss made, and that is what they said continually, that is until people started opening up case backs.

My mistake Don...you are correct!

The issue was marketing the watches as swiss made where they were not. This was done throught misinformation provided on the ShopNBC air. I suppose that it could have been a slip or mistake. But there certainly is no mistake when the watches get opened up by the owners and there is a Chinese movement in them with Swiss on the dial...





Now that is no mistake...it is a flat out lie. BTW - I saw these at Alain's place and found it to be very disturbing...the company KNEW that the information provided was wrong! I do not blame ShopNBC for this one or the presenters (Michael or Jim), because there is no way that they could have known without opening the watch (crazier things have happened, but I am willing to give them both the benefit of the doubt on this one)!

Mark,

If those two were just two more salesmen, like the ADs employees, then I'd agree with you. They're not. Both constantly, CONSTANTLY, tout their INSIDER knowledge, close connection, and such with the Owner of that company. They also run a watch forum that is financed by that company. Too intimate a relationship to let them off the hook on anything like this. Again, if they stuck to shucking and jiving and only were salesmen I'd agree with you.

Docrwm wrote:

Mark,

If those two were just two more salesmen, like the ADs employees, then I'd agree with you. They're not. Both constantly, CONSTANTLY, tout their INSIDER knowledge, close connection, and such with the Owner of that company. They also run a watch forum that is financed by that company. Too intimate a relationship to let them off the hook on anything like this. Again, if they stuck to shucking and jiving and only were salesmen I'd agree with you.

You are probably right...call me a RUBE

BTW - shucking and jiving == classic

andrema wrote:

Docrwm wrote:

Mark,

If those two were just two more salesmen, like the ADs employees, then I'd agree with you. They're not. Both constantly, CONSTANTLY, tout their INSIDER knowledge, close connection, and such with the Owner of that company. They also run a watch forum that is financed by that company. Too intimate a relationship to let them off the hook on anything like this. Again, if they stuck to shucking and jiving and only were salesmen I'd agree with you.

You are probably right...call me a RUBE

BTW - shucking and jiving == classic

Thanks. Classic is polite for saying Old Guy, isn't it?

Spaceview wrote:

I think this is BS what they have done and are still doing. It is dishonest and the AG or NAD should step in.

However, I think anyone who buys an Invicta deserves what they get. It is the responsibility of every consumer to make informed decisions as to how they spend their money. When you buy a watch on Canal Street and get ripped off you have no one to blame but yourself. This is no different. When you see thread after thread outlining in detail the shoddy business practices of Invicta and their ShopNBC representatives and still drop a grand on a watch, well, you have entered the equivalent of cyber-Canal Street. I try to steer my purchases to reputable watch manufactures and their representative. I can buy the same movements, if I choose, and have confidence in my after purchase support and CS by doing so.

I could go on and on as I feel very strongly about this issue and this is MY position and MY position only. I really don't want to debate this with anyone as my mind is made up. As I stated, this is each persons individual responsibility. As I have said many times, Buy what you like, wear what you want.

Instead of typing basically the same thing, I will just agree 100% with the comment above.

TVDinner wrote:

Spaceview wrote:

I think this is BS what they have done and are still doing. It is dishonest and the AG or NAD should step in.

However, I think anyone who buys an Invicta deserves what they get. It is the responsibility of every consumer to make informed decisions as to how they spend their money. When you buy a watch on Canal Street and get ripped off you have no one to blame but yourself. This is no different. When you see thread after thread outlining in detail the shoddy business practices of Invicta and their ShopNBC representatives and still drop a grand on a watch, well, you have entered the equivalent of cyber-Canal Street. I try to steer my purchases to reputable watch manufactures and their representative. I can buy the same movements, if I choose, and have confidence in my after purchase support and CS by doing so.

I could go on and on as I feel very strongly about this issue and this is MY position and MY position only. I really don't want to debate this with anyone as my mind is made up. As I stated, this is each persons individual responsibility. As I have said many times, Buy what you like, wear what you want.

Instead of typing basically the same thing, I will just agree 100% with the comment above.

If people want to buy watches with poor quality control, from a company with poor sales practices...by all means, buy an Invicta. For me, I would much rather buy a watch from honest companies like Android from Wing or Stuhrling Original from Larry.

That is just me...other people can do what they want

There are LOADS of watches out there in ALL price ranges. I agree with Mark, did I say that?, that there are too many other alternatives from companies that have good QC up front and real CS after the sale.

I've got an 8+ in wrist. Often that means I need a couple of extra links for the bracelet that comes on a watch. Bulova (before they were taken over), Citizen, and Seiko each have sent me 2 links with pins, etc. completely free of change on a couple of occasions just by my calling their CS telephone number. None of those watches cost me more than $300 and most were <$200.

There's a whole range of possibilities if you open your eyes and look around at watches in general beyond TV sales.

Docrwm wrote:

Mark,

If those two were just two more salesmen, like the ADs employees, then I'd agree with you. They're not. Both constantly, CONSTANTLY, tout their INSIDER knowledge, close connection, and such with the Owner of that company. They also run a watch forum that is financed by that company. Too intimate a relationship to let them off the hook on anything like this. Again, if they stuck to shucking and jiving and only were salesmen I'd agree with you.

Thats the deal, they beat their chests incessantly, claiming to be expert horologists. But when they are proven wrong, all they had to go by was the cue cards. They are not responsible for the information given them so it follows they are not responsible for any misstatement either.

merichar wrote:

Thats the deal, they beat their chests incessantly, claiming to be expert horologists. But when they are proven wrong, all they had to go by was the cue cards. They are not responsible for the information given them so it follows they are not responsible for any misstatement either.

It's the classic - Heads I win - Tails You Loose situation.

If I read the cue cards and sound brilliant then I am, if I read the cue cards and tell an untruth, make a misstatement, or just mess up it wasn't my fault I'm just a talking head - blame the writers.

Well since we seem to be heading back to a bit more XTREME and open conversation...

SERIOUSLY, with ALL they have against them, not just HATERS spewing, but DOCUMENTED facts to so many BLUNDERS...

...why would anyone buy from this company again? It TRULY befuddles me...

Anomaly wrote:

Well since we seem to be heading back to a bit more XTREME and open conversation...

SERIOUSLY, with ALL they have against them, not just HATERS spewing, but DOCUMENTED facts to so many BLUNDERS...

...why would anyone buy from this company again? It TRULY befuddles me...

Basically, people get hooked on the designs, the value pays, and belonging to something .

that is the long and the short of it, as far as Im concerned.

turds all of them

And just a message to our lurking WatchLord fans...

No one threatened me in ANY way shape or form about a thing said on this site about Invicta, the topic just BORES me to death since I will NEVER buy an Invicta watch.

Seeing as how enough people still find interest in this "watch company" though, we have decided to allow topics surrounding it. CURRENT happenings that want to be addressed are fine, just don't bring up the SAME stuff that has been repeated over and over again.

I will be asking the XMT Team to oversee any threads on these issues for me...

Now back to your lurking...

ericf4 wrote:

turds all of them

+1

those words have been my repsonse to no less then like 10 threads about varying subjects lately,,,,,my new catch phrase.

tattoo chef wrote:

Anomaly wrote:

Well since we seem to be heading back to a bit more XTREME and open conversation...

SERIOUSLY, with ALL they have against them, not just HATERS spewing, but DOCUMENTED facts to so many BLUNDERS...

...why would anyone buy from this company again? It TRULY befuddles me...

Basically, people get hooked on the designs, the value pays, and belonging to something .

that is the long and the short of it, as far as Im concerned.

Yep it's the designs and VP accessibility that got me. Not really the belonging part.
After a while and with exposure elsewhere you realize the designs are pretty much like empty calories.

The SAS 7750 was probably the only "original" design worth buying and I'm glad I have one.
Some may know better than if the SAS case design is "truly original". I honestly don't know.

The Venom monstrosity may also be original but its so big I hardly wear it.
Mainly bought it to have the architecture in hand (and at a low price).
IMO, Most of the over the top designs are essentially novelty fashion watches, period.

jaw wrote:

Yep it's the designs and VP accessibility that got me. Not really the belonging part.
After a while and with exposure elsewhere you realize the designs are pretty much like empty calories.

The SAS 7750 was probably the only "original" design worth buying and I'm glad I have one.
Some may know better than if the SAS case design is "truly original". I honestly don't know.

The Venom monstrosity may also be original but its so big I hardly wear it.
Mainly bought it to have the architecture in hand (and at a low price).
IMO, Most of the over the top designs are essentially novelty fashion watches, period.

The value payments are the thing that really gets my blood pressure up. I understand why they are used and the rationale used by people who have used them --->>> so that the products have less of an immediate impact and the cost can be spread for many months. However, that would be fine if people were just using it to buy 1 watch...but that is usually not the case, they are using it to buy many watches. I have read many threads where the individual has 5 or more VPs a MONTH! It makes me sick to think about that! I blame this on ShopNBC and how they emphasize this program.

I know that I will probably catch a ration of shit for posting this, but that is the way that I feel about it. Please do not take offense, if you had them in the past or currently have them...I can understand your reasoning and understand the rationale, but I just don't agree with it personally.

I never liked the value pays either. I did use them once or twice but it was linked to a debit card. Like any other form of credit, value pays can lead to problems if people are not careful-or disciplined for that matter. My preferred watch buying method is one value pay at time of sale. I tend to use one of my debit cards so I never see the purchase on a credit card bill either.

I know everyone can't do this... cash at the AD.
Never use credit if you can't pay it off at the end of the month.

if I can't own it outright, I don't want it. Period. There is no joy in toys on borrowed money. So Mark, no offense here, wer'e on the same page . . . probably a different tax bracket, but the same page none the less.