I like the look of this one but something bothers me.....

For someone so versed in Asian watches, I find your post a bit troubling Alberta. You frequent all the normal haunts. Are you telling me you are unaware of all the Parnis, Alpha, and Herc watches that come with Panerai straps, Panerai crowns, Rolex serial numbers on end-links, chronometer designations, etc?

Aqua Homer wrote:

For someone so versed in Asian watches, I find your post a bit troubling Alberta. You frequent all the normal haunts. Are you telling me you are unaware of all the Parnis, Alpha, and Herc watches that come with Panerai straps, Panerai crowns, Rolex serial numbers on end-links, chronometer designations, etc?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm probably more aware of those problems than most people.

All I'm saying is that it is better that these things be sold as rebranded fakes than as branded fakes. Every purchase of a rebranded fake means the seller is closer to realizing that some people prefer honest branding and will be customers when the branding is honest; that's a good lesson for those sellers to learn.

A couple of other things: The "chronometer" issue is not the hill you want to die on, AH...that "certification" is a closed-shop Swiss co-opting of a term that really only previously indicated a watch was sufficiently accurate for marine navigation. The fact that the Swiss houses that claim to own--but who, in reality, have merely attempted to usurp--the term do their level best to ensure that they need not defend against...uh...say Japanese or Chinese competition in that arena makes their claim to ownership, well...tedious. As I've said before: "Swiss chronometer" is to world horology what "World Series" is to world baseball.

Also, right now so-called reputable Swiss brands are doing the bare minimum required to "legally" re-brand Chinese movements as "Swiss"...and these Swiss "rebranders" actually have had the gall to write the very rules that allow themselves to do so...so Swissophiles on their highhorses really don't impress me much.

Really, though, my point is this:

I have no issue with people dissing this or that particular company for bad behaviour--and that goes whether the company is Swiss, Chinese or Lilliputian. But I will no more stand for indiscriminate or wholesale condemnation of modern and current Chinese horology, or the Chinese in general, than I would for defend someone who decided to tar "all Swiss" as dissemblers and cheats just because of the self-serving antics of the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry and the Swiss courts.

Your doing the same thing to the swiss watch industry????? You cant have it both ways. nobody can say anything bad about the chinese watches and thread after thread you rip the swiss watch industry!!! Thats called having your cake and eating it too! Have nothing wrong with chinese watches but cant they come up with one or two designs on there own??

cali kid wrote:

Your doing the same thing to the swiss watch industry????? You cant have it both ways. nobody can say anything bad about the chinese watches and thread after thread you rip the swiss watch industry!!! Thats called having your cake and eating it too! Have nothing wrong with chinese watches but cant they come up with one or two designs on there own??

No, I'm not. If you think I am, then find me any place I've ever said anything derogatory about the Swiss generally or Swiss watches in general or as a whole.

There are any number of Swiss brands I respect that I've never said a bad word about. My complaints are not against the Swiss nor the entire Swiss industry and I've been very specific: I have a large problem with the claim that the term "chronometer" is owned by the Swiss, and I have a problem with self-serving rules engineered by Swiss regulatory agencies that protect dissemblers who operate under Swiss jurisdiction. I've said nothing bad about the Swiss or the Swiss industry in general.

my bad AT! I love all your vintage watches just wished some of these companies would quit make replica ripoffs! Guess if people would quit buying them there wouldnt be a market!!

cali kid wrote:

my bad AT! I love all your vintage watches just wished some of these companies would quit make replica ripoffs! Guess if people would quit buying them there wouldnt be a market!!

Cali Kid: Thanks very much for understanding my position, and for your kind words about my collection. Although I have no problem with clearly branded homages, I really don't like fakes and I won't buy them or wear them. And I also wish people would stop buying branded fakes but even the Swiss note that only 30% of those come from China--it's a worldwide problem.

You'll note also that on my AMCH website I post homages in only two instances: one to describe a low point in the older (1980s) Chinese industry and the other to describe what I see as a transitional phase in the more recent.

I have a friend who is dealing with a newer Chinese watch company right now; he's having them make possibly derivative designs but not copies (after all, there is only so much you can do with three hands and a dial), and he asked the company to please clearly and proudly put China Made on the dial--and if possible to do so in both English and Chinese characters.

The watch company is proud of their products, very eager to do good quality control and was happy to do the "China Made" for a paying customer but they were also somewhat astonished at the request. They said "...but...Chinese label...we think it doesn't mean good quality to most of the world" and they were both confused but proud that a customer was finally happy to ask for the label.

I think it's sad when people don't feel free to be proud of who they are and what they make--but I also hope and think that when my friend's watchbuilders make the watches he's asked for, they'll take even better care now that they know that China Made is on the label by request...and I think that's a really nice thing.

When it comes right down to it, I like both the very generous and open-minded tone and spirit of what Mr James Elsener wrote in this post at WatchGeeks

...and I suppose I should mention: I actually think the Hydroconquest is a killer lookin' watch

AlbertaTime wrote:

cali kid wrote:

Your doing the same thing to the swiss watch industry????? You cant have it both ways. nobody can say anything bad about the chinese watches and thread after thread you rip the swiss watch industry!!! Thats called having your cake and eating it too! Have nothing wrong with chinese watches but cant they come up with one or two designs on there own??

No, I'm not. If you think I am, then find me any place I've ever said anything derogatory about the Swiss generally or Swiss watches in general or as a whole.

There are any number of Swiss brands I respect that I've never said a bad word about. My complaints are not against the Swiss nor the entire Swiss industry and I've been very specific: I have a large problem with the claim that the term "chronometer" is owned by the Swiss, and I have a problem with self-serving rules engineered by Swiss regulatory agencies that protect dissemblers who operate under Swiss jurisdiction. I've said nothing bad about the Swiss or the Swiss industry in general.

You have hit the nail on the head. The Swiss have tried to rig the game and then force others to play. I own no known Chinese watches at this point. I do own Swiss. I have problems with BOTH. The Chinese make fakes and copies and sell them as real at times. The Swiss do the SAME. Remember folks that even the Swiss shrill claims about fakes don't pin even the majority of the fakes worldwide on China. The US, back when it had a real watch industry, was constantly worried about SWISS fakes (1 jewel movements).

The Term Chronometer means a time piece that is accurate enough to safely navigate with and that is all it means. I own two COSC watches - one I bought used and the other was a gift. I'd love to own a Grand Seiko as their standards are HIGHER than COSCs. But "Chronometer" is a word in regular usage and should NOT be something that is Trademarked, Copyrighted, or Patented - Period. Lets not have another Panerai incident here with them Copyrighting a term, getting their crown guard patented and when that ran out having it Trademarked.

I owned a Prometheus. I was EXCITED that a company was finally offering a watch that they were open about having been made in China with a Chinese version of the 7750. My perspective was that if the makers in China knew that they would be spotlighted there was a chance that they would do their best work so that they could be proud of it. I was one of the ones that went after the "Lyndon" and that self-proclaimed expert at that other forum who called it a Swiss 7750 because it was Chinese but they had tried very hard to hide that fact.

Sorry, I don't have a problem with watches that have their own names on them - no matter what they resemble.

You guys always use the same ad-hominem when it comes to the chronometer thing. Please listen carefully..... I am not claiming that Alpha uses the text "Chronometer" on a few of it's models because it is accurate enough to navigate by. I also do not state anywhere that the Swiss should "own" the term. I argue that "Chronometer" appears on a few models because the brand they are copying has this designation. Same reason why they have screw down crowns at 5ATM.

Also, you know damn well that the guys who are fans of these Chinese Homage watches do not get up in arms when their "Homage" watches arrive with counterfeit parts still affixed. The counterfeiter is still being supported whether their wares are bought as a Panerai or other by a Replica fan, or whether they are bought by Parnis/Alpha what have you, re-branded.

It is what it is.

A quick look at E-Bay and I found several examples of this phenomenon. Must have been an accident, or design oversight......

Here is a nice Parnis Chronometer.

Same watch, different view. It sure is hard to tell, but is that a Breitling crown? How did that get there? This is a Parnis watch!!!!

Here is another I posted elsewhere. Nice Parnis Caseback and strap....

Same watch....Let's have a look at the strap. Thats odd, seems to be a Panerai strap on a Parnis watch. Must have been some kind of a mistake at the Panerai factory, no?

Aqua Homer wrote:

A quick look at E-Bay and I found several examples of this phenomenon. Must have been an accident, or design oversight......

Here is a nice Parnis Chronometer.

Just exactly do you think you are surprising here? As I noted earlier--I'm as aware as you about this problem, and yeah, I don't like to see it.

Still, my point stands: it's an improvement when these watches are being sold clearly branded as Parnis instead of being clearly branded as the fake, and the very small remaining details you are struggling so hard to stay upset about don't change *that* fact.

But you're less concerned about the step in the right direction and more concerned about the sordid past--I get that.

Well, stay upset if you insist--but I'm not sure what part of that decision makes you feel better.

P, B they are close!! So you think maybe Breitling makes the cases and Panerai makes the straps for Parnis??? What you gettin' at AH!!

I understand completely Alberta. It is a step in the right direction when it is clearly branded Parnis, but only very small oversights exist like a Breitling crown, and Panerai strap are affixed. They are making huge manufacturing strides. I'm not sure how accurate the "sordid past" comment is, as the auction is currently running on todays date.

To be clear on another point, these arguments sometimes skirt the thinly veiled accusations of racism, as the reason for railing against counterfeiters. You have used terms like xenophobic right here on this forum. Other forums play the race card much more fervently. I would like to point out that personally speaking, I love Japanese design and innovation in all things to include watches. Most of my most sought after models are Seiko Japan-only models. That said, I think the average red-neck racist would have a hard time discerning a Japnese citizen from a Chinese citizen. Would you agree, or no?

Aqua Homer wrote:

A quick look at E-Bay and I found several examples of this phenomenon. Must have been an accident, or design oversight......

Here is a nice Parnis Chronometer.

Nice looking watch. What's it selling for anyway? No problem with the term "Chronometer". Now if they said it was COSC, well that's another story.

Aqua Homer wrote:

I understand completely Alberta. It is a step in the right direction when it is clearly branded Parnis, but only very small oversights exist like a Breitling crown, and Panerai strap are affixed. They are making huge manufacturing strides. I'm not sure how accurate the "sordid past" comment is, as the auction is currently running on todays date.

To be clear on another point, these arguments sometimes skirt the thinly veiled accusations of racism, as the reason for railing against counterfeiters. You have used terms like xenophobic right here on this forum. Other forums play the race card much more fervently. I would like to point out that personally speaking, I love Japanese design and innovation in all things to include watches. Most of my most sought after models are Seiko Japan-only models. That said, I think the average red-neck racist would have a hard time discerning a Japanese citizen from a Chinese citizen. Would you agree, or no?

First off, I agree--most red-neck racists would have a hard time discerning the difference--and probably an equally hard time figuring out which is the big hand.

Yes, the auction is running today--and the poorly branded parts are "last vestiges" (if you will) remnants from the sordid past--and I agree it's unfortunate.

Aqua Homer wrote:

I understand completely Alberta. It is a step in the right direction when it is clearly branded Parnis, but only very small oversights exist like a Breitling crown, and Panerai strap are affixed. They are making huge manufacturing strides. I'm not sure how accurate the "sordid past" comment is, as the auction is currently running on todays date.

To be clear on another point, these arguments sometimes skirt the thinly veiled accusations of racism, as the reason for railing against counterfeiters. You have used terms like xenophobic right here on this forum. Other forums play the race card much more fervently. I would like to point out that personally speaking, I love Japanese design and innovation in all things to include watches. Most of my most sought after models are Seiko Japan-only models. That said, I think the average red-neck racist would have a hard time discerning a Japnese citizen from a Chinese citizen. Would you agree, or no?

Mike,

We're not talking about the average "red-neck racist" but the high end Rolex wearing asshole racists (no one here)! The Eurocentrism rampant in WISdom is disgusting IMHO. I know you're not one but don't discount the Anti-Asian attitudes rampant in the community we participate in on the web.

I've posted examples of morons saying that they KNOW ahead of time, without looking, examining, or even reading that ANY Rolex is better than the best Grand Seiko.

We all know, KNOW, that nearly every major "Swiss" brand is full of CHINESE parts. Perhaps that "Breitling" crown is a REAL one? Could be.

Hey i resemble those remarks!! or something like that...... But on a serious note, i dont mind the china thing would just like it clearly marked that it's proudly made there!! some of the finest companies in the world have opened up state of the art facilities in china (not just watches) to get around enviromental issues and benefit by grossly underpaid and over worked employees!! Man one more post like that and i just might blow my idiot status!!

cali kid wrote:

Hey i resemble those remarks!! or something like that......

Let me be Perfectly Clear (as a famous Politician used to say) on this about that:

NO ONE HERE IS IMPLICATED BY MY REMARKS ABOUT ROLEX WEARING ASSHOLE RACISTS. NO ONE.

Docrwm wrote:

cali kid wrote:

Hey i resemble those remarks!! or something like that......

Let me be Perfectly Clear (as a famous Politician used to say) on this about that:

NO ONE HERE IS IMPLICATED BY MY REMARKS ABOUT ROLEX WEARING ASSHOLE RACISTS. NO ONE.

think there is only three of four of us here, there's a 75% chance you werent talking about me and i'm good with that Doc!!

cali kid wrote:

Docrwm wrote:

cali kid wrote:

Hey i resemble those remarks!! or something like that......

Let me be Perfectly Clear (as a famous Politician used to say) on this about that:

NO ONE HERE IS IMPLICATED BY MY REMARKS ABOUT ROLEX WEARING ASSHOLE RACISTS. NO ONE.

think there is only three of four of us here, there's a 75% chance you werent talking about me and i'm good with that Doc!!

Glad you're good with it, but it's not you. Seriously, you know the type. "If its Swiss it must be better" - it's the foundation of Invicta's claims to having a Swiss Factory, why they say "Swiss" nearly every other word on SNBC, etc. Rolex is the poster child for that attitude, doesn't mean that you can't own one and be a solid guy. Now, back to the original argument

Yes, thanks Doc. My original argument has nothing what-so-ever to do with Chinese cases, movement ebauches, where parts are sourced, or anything of the sort. Most if not all of the micro brands so to speak are sourced from China. I have no problem with this. We all understand the lies and grey areas that exist from the "finest factories in the world", "Swiss Parts", "Swiss Movt", etc. I have no quarrel with ANY of this. What I do have a problem with is counterfeit watches. Parnis, Alpha, MM, etc, seem to use counterfeit parts on their homages, OR take a counterfeit watch and re-brand it.
This is the only dog I have in this fight. It is illegal. It supports organized crime. It supports Terrorism.

Being a Swiss snob is one thing. Counterfeit watches are another.

I would like to thank Alan, Barnbuilder, and all of the XMT members who have allowed me to make this argument here. There has been great debate. I'm curious as to why several other forums have banned me for the exact same posts, photos, and arguments. No TOS violations, no personal attacks, just fact-based postings with attached proof. More forums should take a page from this one. Thanks.


DEATH TO COUNTERFEITERS!

Aqua Homer wrote:

More forums should take a page from this one. Thanks.

Agreed. All it takes is the understanding that sensible, well-intentioned nice people can have differences of opinion, and that one need not always agree to remain friends. We meet here on common ground.

Best regards all.

Ron

Hell were all scared shitless of you AH!! You just keep on rockin!! Doc, i love my seiko UFO just as much as some of the high dollar stuff, it's unique and you dont see it everywhere! Have always liked the 70's seiko divers and wished they would re-release some of those case styles!

Aqua Homer wrote:

I would like to thank Alan, Barnbuilder, and all of the XMT members who have allowed me to make this argument here. There has been great debate. I'm curious as to why several other forums have banned me for the exact same posts, photos, and arguments. No TOS violations, no personal attacks, just fact-based postings with attached proof. More forums should take a page from this one. Thanks.


DEATH TO COUNTERFEITERS!

Mike,

Thanks AH...

I just honestly BELIEVE that if you let grown men express themselves like grown men, even when they disagree, and not overly moderate them, that they will have great conversations even if they don't see eye to eye...