Deinition of a Homage?

Definition of Homage is slippery IMHO.

In a discussion of homages at WUS, someone there listed the Bernhardt Globemaster GMT as a homeage to some obscure Rolex. Not in my opinion. I've seen homages and they look like the watch in nearly every regard. But the degree of similarity varies in everyones mind but its hard to quantify and there is no consensus on it.


Mine has a 24 hour dial, the Rolex does not.

Mine has #s on the dial, the Rolex does not.

Mine has a GMT hand - but then so do dozens and I don't think Rolex either invented that or patented it (yet).

Mine has crown guards - ok.

The GMT hand is a skeleton - is the Rolex's?

Mine has a 4 o'clock date window and no wart (sometimes called a cyclops by those being kind).

It has an hour, minute, and second hand (1 each) as does the Rolex but mine are not Mercedes (thank G*d).

Now, the American Steinhart looks VERY much more like the Rolex. I'd be more inclined to call it a Homeage. The Alpha GMT looks precisely like the Rolex GMT IMHO with the exception of the logo.


Real Rolex GMT II


Bernhardt Globemaster GMT - Not a Homeage IMHO


Debaufre GMT - Pretty Darn Close to the Rolex GMT II


Alpha GMT - Homage

As someone said, there are only so many variations that work and to call something a Homeage because they share design features is not always accurate. Where you draw the line is pretty subjective IMHO.

I would say you Bernhardt is DEFINITELY a homage to the Rolex...


...but for me that is a GOOD thing, let me explain.

The Alpha and ever MORE so the Debaufre are basically COPIES of the Rolex. The Alpha does have a dual color dial, but after that the case, hands, hour markers, bezels, case, cyclops are EXACTLY the same as the Rolex. Only difference is what is printed on the dial.

The Bernhardt on the the other hand, has a similar case, the bezels are alike (but the inserts are different), but everything else is very different. So in that respect, it pays HOMAGE (respect to a classic design) with out blatantly COPYING it...

Wear that Bernhardt with pride!

Anomaly wrote:

I would say you Bernhardt is DEFINITELY a homage to the Rolex...


...but for me that is a GOOD thing, let me explain.

The Alpha and ever MORE so the Debaufre are basically COPIES of the Rolex. The Alpha does have a dual color dial, but after that the case, hands, hour markers, bezels, case, cyclops are EXACTLY the same as the Rolex. Only difference is what is printed on the dial.

The Bernhardt on the the other hand, has a similar case, the bezels are alike (but the inserts are different), but everything else is very different. So in that respect, it pays HOMAGE (respect to a classic design) with out blatantly COPYING it...

Wear that Bernhardt with pride!

Thanks, I agree. The only difference is usage of the terms involved and this is another illustration of how they can not be consistently applied as we have no common definitions across people.

In the context of the WUS thread the term Homage was used derogatorily and similarly to your usage of the term copy. In that context my post makes more sense. I have never seen the Bernhardt as a homage/copy of the Rolex. Similar on a basic level of case type and bezel type - ok, but not alike in more specific areas.

My use of those 4 watches was to illustrate, hoepfully, that different people have different standards internally. Some will assert that all 3 are homages to the Rolex. Others will draw a line at either the Debaufre or the Alpha. Others will accept all 4 and say that as long as none of the others try to deceive by using the Rolex name or logo they are fine.

Anomaly wrote:

I would say you Bernhardt is DEFINITELY a homage to the Rolex...


...but for me that is a GOOD thing, let me explain.

The Alpha and ever MORE so the Debaufre are basically COPIES of the Rolex. The Alpha does have a dual color dial, but after that the case, hands, hour markers, bezels, case, cyclops are EXACTLY the same as the Rolex. Only difference is what is printed on the dial.

The Bernhardt on the the other hand, has a similar case, the bezels are alike (but the inserts are different), but everything else is very different. So in that respect, it pays HOMAGE (respect to a classic design) with out blatantly COPYING it...

Wear that Bernhardt with pride!

I agree with Alan. Further, the issue of "homages" is one of varying gray-scales with an infinite number of points along the line. I think everyone would probably put their stake in the ground at a somewhat different point along that scale. There are so many variables to consider (like font style and size; length, breadth, and style of hands; etc.) that the differences don't result in a step function where you can say "at this step a watch becomes a homage."

Docrwm wrote:

Anomaly wrote:

I would say you Bernhardt is DEFINITELY a homage to the Rolex...


...but for me that is a GOOD thing, let me explain.

The Alpha and ever MORE so the Debaufre are basically COPIES of the Rolex. The Alpha does have a dual color dial, but after that the case, hands, hour markers, bezels, case, cyclops are EXACTLY the same as the Rolex. Only difference is what is printed on the dial.

The Bernhardt on the the other hand, has a similar case, the bezels are alike (but the inserts are different), but everything else is very different. So in that respect, it pays HOMAGE (respect to a classic design) with out blatantly COPYING it...

Wear that Bernhardt with pride!

Thanks, I agree. The only difference is usage of the terms involved and this is another illustration of how they can not be consistently applied as we have no common definitions across people.

In the context of the WUS thread the term Homage was used derogatorily and similarly to your usage of the term copy. In that context my post makes more sense. I have never seen the Bernhardt as a homage/copy of the Rolex. Similar on a basic level of case type and bezel type - ok, but not alike in more specific areas.

My use of those 4 watches was to illustrate, hoepfully, that different people have different standards internally. Some will assert that all 3 are homages to the Rolex. Others will draw a line at either the Debaufre or the Alpha. Others will accept all 4 and say that as long as none of the others try to deceive by using the Rolex name or logo they are fine.

You're right. Everyone has their own viewpoint on a subject like this. In the case of the Rolex sub, at what point do you say a whole new generic category now exists, with many makers trying to exploit a general "look" or style of watch? At some point the original just blends in with all the others in that new category. I mean, you could say that every wristwatch today is a "homage" to the first maker who put lugs on a pocketwatch and added a strap to fasten around one's wrist. After a while they all just blend together and other differences emerge.

pacifichrono wrote:

Docrwm wrote:

Anomaly wrote:

I would say you Bernhardt is DEFINITELY a homage to the Rolex...


...but for me that is a GOOD thing, let me explain.

The Alpha and ever MORE so the Debaufre are basically COPIES of the Rolex. The Alpha does have a dual color dial, but after that the case, hands, hour markers, bezels, case, cyclops are EXACTLY the same as the Rolex. Only difference is what is printed on the dial.

The Bernhardt on the the other hand, has a similar case, the bezels are alike (but the inserts are different), but everything else is very different. So in that respect, it pays HOMAGE (respect to a classic design) with out blatantly COPYING it...

Wear that Bernhardt with pride!

Thanks, I agree. The only difference is usage of the terms involved and this is another illustration of how they can not be consistently applied as we have no common definitions across people.

In the context of the WUS thread the term Homage was used derogatorily and similarly to your usage of the term copy. In that context my post makes more sense. I have never seen the Bernhardt as a homage/copy of the Rolex. Similar on a basic level of case type and bezel type - ok, but not alike in more specific areas.

My use of those 4 watches was to illustrate, hoepfully, that different people have different standards internally. Some will assert that all 3 are homages to the Rolex. Others will draw a line at either the Debaufre or the Alpha. Others will accept all 4 and say that as long as none of the others try to deceive by using the Rolex name or logo they are fine.

You're right. Everyone has their own viewpoint on a subject like this. In the case of the Rolex sub, at what point do you say a whole new generic category now exists, with many makers trying to exploit a general "look" or style of watch? At some point the original just blends in with all the others in that new category. I mean, you could say that every wristwatch today is a "homage" to the first maker who put lugs on a pocketwatch and added a strap to fasten around one's wrist. After a while they all just blend together and other differences emerge.

Precisely. What I find fascinating are the Homage Police who each have their G*d-given definition which may not be challenged.

Buy what you like....etc.

I can see that there are so many variables with this topic and probably 100x's as many opinions. For me, a homage is anything that is not a direct copy......a copy is a replica in my mind so, I agree with Tom, all watches are homages on a grand scale and on a smaller scale, giving homage to a particular model by same or similar pieces ( not the whole watch) being used is OK by me for the definition of homage.

You're off your rocker on this one Doc. The Bernhardt is definitely a homage to the GMT Master II. There is'nt really anything wrong with that though, in my opinion. The bone that really needs picked here is your description of the GMT Master II as an obscure Rolex model.

merichar wrote:

You're off your rocker on this one Doc. The Bernhardt is definitely a homage to the GMT Master II. There is'nt really anything wrong with that though, in my opinion. The bone that really needs picked here is your description of the GMT Master II as an obscure Rolex model.

Just don't see the Homage part. As for the Obscure part - ask any 1000 people randomly selected and I bet <1 answers any questions about the watch or could pick it out of the 4 I listed if the names were obscured.

Docrwm wrote:

merichar wrote:

You're off your rocker on this one Doc. The Bernhardt is definitely a homage to the GMT Master II. There is'nt really anything wrong with that though, in my opinion. The bone that really needs picked here is your description of the GMT Master II as an obscure Rolex model.

Just don't see the Homage part. As for the Obscure part - ask any 1000 people randomly selected and I bet <1 answers any questions about the watch or could pick it out of the 4 I listed if the names were obscured.

Its not a twin like the Debaufre' but there is definitely a strong resemblance in the case shape and bezel markings. They are in the same family but probably different baby daddies. Thats not really a bad thing but its real. I think your hypothesis for model recognition could be valid for any watch.

Alpha is just wrong the other two borrowed a look from rolex and thats not a bad thing. I'm with Mark on the GMTMaster , it's there main sports/Mil watch thats not a driver and was built with input from Pan Am airways in 1954! I had on from the late 70's and didnt care for the small crown and plastic (acrilic) crystal always getting scratched but it just took a couple minutes to make it look new! Gave it too my brother in the early 80's and he sold it a couple years ago for 1600 bones , not bad for the 400 i paid for it around 82/83 and bought a used sub. The GMT Master II came out in 1973 and has been an amazing piece ever since! Made many watch related mistakes over the years but giving away my GMT Master has to top them all! Think it's the watch most military pilots would prefer for alot of years and i'm sure mark has seen them on a ton of wrist over the years! It was the blue print for all these watches and alpha just plain stole the design! i like the watch you have the best Doc, besides the Rolex of coarse!

I don't see the bernhardt as a homage at all.Other than being round,thats where the similarities end.
Now the Alphas I take exception to.They use replica cases and bracelets.How do I know that? every exterior part on an Alpha rolex and
omega fits on the real one.These are 10 buck crap watches.The only thing that saves them is the word Alpha on the dial.

Here's a different spin...I think when a company brings out one of their own that has been discontinued then to me that is a homage. Everything else is a copy. Some companies do it better than others...I tend to respect the companies who try to make it their own.

It all depends on whether the person likes the brand or not, if they like and respect the brand it's an homage and if they don't then it is a replica, copy or rip-off..

In either case...if you like the watch wear the heck out of it....

Cheers
Mike