Originality, watches, copying, replicas, and such

We've had a few discussions of originality here recently with some indicating that they don't care how old a watch is or if the original company even exists any longer, making one that looks nearly identical (minus the logos) is somehow wrong.

I don't buy that argument for a variety of reasons. Main among my counter-arguments is that if a company made it 30+ years ago, no longer offers it, and the old ones are scarce as hens teeth then re-releasing it without trying to fake an old one is just like drug makers coming out with generic medicines after the patent runs its course.

Here is an example of a very nice Heuer (this one is not Tom's BTW )


It looks remarkably similar to several more modern watches. Heuer set the standard for sporty chronos in the late 60s and 70s IMHO. LOTS of makers have taken inspiration from their work during that time period.

The Heuer seems to have inspired this model


and this one...

I agree, if the brand isn't around any more, why not re-issue a great looking watch ?

I wish someone would release some VINTAGE style watches but in the 44-45mm range!

Anomaly wrote:

I agree, if the brand isn't around any more, why not re-issue a great looking watch ?

I wish someone would release some VINTAGE style watches but in the 44-45mm range!

As long as it isn't indentical and isn't trying to be passed off as something it isn't make it. Ands make it good while your at it like I think Fortis did!!!

You make a terrific analogy there Doc ! ..I think everyone will
always respect the "original" watch that starts a look. Therefore
if a watch is SO great that it inspires other watches to be similar,
then that seems alright. As long as it's not identical like Dale said,
and pays an honest tribute to the original !..It's a VERY interesting
topic, that's for sure !

Anomaly wrote:

I agree, if the brand isn't around any more, why not re-issue a great looking watch ?

I wish someone would release some VINTAGE style watches but in the 44-45mm range!

Hear Hear - but make that 45-47mm range.

So how long after the original is this acceptable?
What of Omega ploprof, and that 58 click Ocean 7 rip off, is that OK?

Where then Gents, do we draw the line?

t20569cald wrote:

So how long after the original is this acceptable?
What of Omega ploprof, and that 58 click Ocean 7 rip off, is that OK?

Where then Gents, do we draw the line?

I have the LM7 and YES, the bezel sucks, but I don't dive, bought it for the look.

It is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, that Omega didn't put out the Ploprof again until they noticed the popularity of the LM7...

How would this apply to say CARS?

Ford currently does not have a Thunderbird in production, can I start a company that makes a car that looks JUST like a '57 t-bird?

Well...First of all there is NOTHING NEW under the Sun.

From a designer POV - we all feed and borrow from EVERYTHING around us.
Ideally...IF we are inspired to appropriation of a design (which 95% of the time), we are obligated to expand/evolve it, to the extent it becomes our own. Which includes mixing/matching other borrowed design components.

No way to really identify/define plagiarism acceptable or otherwise other than no blatant copies allowed (logo or not).
No statute of limitations on rip-offs. It is what it is - if it looks like a duck...quack.

Do I own any - Yes. (But all of which I could never afford, sans the Offshore Diver PO homage)
Marine Diver, and a Panerai Daylight Chrono (knock-Off), Invica Pro Diver, Invicta Off-Shore Diver.

Theres alot of watches out there that other than the name on the dial are exact copies of the original.Does it irritate me? sure.
It bothers most of us.Whether we like it or not,these homage watches still don't cross the line.
The lm7? homage whether anyone thinks so or not.
all of the panerai homage watches? as long as they don't say panerai,they're fine.
Some of the older watches that are impossible to find, I'm all for a company to make a homage to it.
This watch is a homage but used the original movement.

Do some here think this is a knock off of a heuer? I don't.Sinn makes a number of watches that draw from much older
watch companies.
Theres a company right now that makes the submariner right down to the deployant but puts there own name on it.
This watch is made in the same factory that makes the rolex replicas.Again though,it doesn't cross the line.
Its irritating to see it but until some rules are changed,they aren't considered replicas.

Gents, There are numerous threads about whats a 'Homage"

So I just want to point out something.
I know you all know this, but for discussion sake, " Homage " means to " Honor and respect"

The LM7 is a copy, straight up. Where is the " Honor" ? Where is the " respect" ?
I could go on all night about brands and models, that are exact in every way, save for the name on the dial.

These are not " Homage " watches guys. They are a lazy way of making some cash.

I admit, in my own designs, i used some cues from JLC, and Glasshutte Original .
The watch has many of my own marks, and a couple from the engineer that helped me do the drawings, and renderings.
Its a classic design, so not original by any means.
BUT, its my design, and i was not lazy. The design came to me during a Bell run doing a Bell Bounce Dive, and my Panerai was the catalyst.
I spent almost 2 years on it, until it was the final product.

So, yeah, i dont like see the lazy arsed crap, that is put out as a " Homage "

In my book, the only current Homage watches, are done by the original manufactures anyway.
As for the Zodiac watch the other day, if the original company is not longer trading, then its OK, with me.

As for nearly every other so called " Homage" well,,,,,,,we need a smiley for being " Hung , drawn, and Quartered "

Great discussion...

Do homages, copies, "look a likes" hurt the original manufacturer (NOT replicas)?

Most people who buy these do so because they can't or choose not to spend "that kind of money" on a watch, so is the original manufacturer really losing anything?

Another question, how many companies have sued over the issue?

Did Omega sue LM7...?

I think Panerai went after some MARINA MILITARE makers...?

Is it folklore or did Rolex really go after Invicta...?

I seriously doubt that the LM7 or the Marina Militare had ANY effect on Omega or Panerai sales. I agree that many people like the look of these models but simply can't afford the real thing. There is nothing on either watch branding them a Omega or Panerai. There are PLENTY of fakes out there that have Breitling, Panerai, Omega, etc plastered on the dial and are meant to deliberately mislead you in to thinking IT IS what IT ISN'T. That, to me anyway, being the difference between a homage and a fake. Of course you can always get new and different designs from such companies that proclaim to be on the 'CUTTING EDGE' of design, such as Renato........you just won't want to tell what time it is!

Anomaly wrote:

Ford currently does not have a Thunderbird in production, can I start a company that makes a car that looks JUST like a '57 t-bird?

Well, Chinese and Korean car companies are doing near total copies of cars currently in production from other marques...

porschefan wrote:

Anomaly wrote:

Ford currently does not have a Thunderbird in production, can I start a company that makes a car that looks JUST like a '57 t-bird?

Well, Chinese and Korean car companies are doing near total copies of cars currently in production from other marques...

KIA is the Master at capturing the design essence IMO.
You actually have to be a really good designer to do this well.

bodypeersur1 wrote:

I seriously doubt that the LM7 or the Marina Militare had ANY effect on Omega or Panerai sales. I agree that many people like the look of these models but simply can't afford the real thing. There is nothing on either watch branding them a Omega or Panerai. There are PLENTY of fakes out there that have Breitling, Panerai, Omega, etc plastered on the dial and are meant to deliberately mislead you in to thinking IT IS what IT ISN'T. That, to me anyway, being the difference between a homage and a fake. Of course you can always get new and different designs from such companies that proclaim to be on the 'CUTTING EDGE' of design, such as Renato........you just won't want to wear them!

difficult to say with any certainty if affects their sales , but surely it must have some impact.
I must confess, i have no issue affording any watches in this kind of bracket, such as Omega, Panerai etc.
So have never given thought to wanting a particular watch design, that is available for a few hundred in these lesser brands. And lesser they indeed are.

But to say the LM7 , ( and i can name countless others ) is not trying to mislead, well i think that is typed in haste.
Its not paying respect to Omega, and there is no honor is a direct copy, so you can scrap the word " Homage ", and what are we left with, what were they trying to do?

Back to to lack of funds point, well i can see that, but i really want a Mercedes Maclaren SLR.
OK so i cant see it ever happening, as i just cant afford it, and most likely never will. And if i some day i can, there will always be something else by then.
BUT, there is no way i am going to run out and by a kit car with 45 horse power, to get the style!
Not only will i look a I will feel like one too

Perhaps if you cant afford it, you just have to let it go, because a Chinese knock off, will never for-fill the desire you always had for the watch in question.

Anomaly wrote:

Great discussion...

Do homages, copies, "look a likes" hurt the original manufacturer (NOT replicas)?

Most people who buy these do so because they can't or choose not to spend "that kind of money" on a watch, so is the original manufacturer really losing anything?

Another question, how many companies have sued over the issue?

Did Omega sue LM7...?

I think Panerai went after some MARINA MILITARE makers...?

Is it folklore or did Rolex really go after Invicta...?

From everything i read, its hard to sue over a style.
If you have for example, the crown protector from Panerai, then you can take a patent. A patent does run out, and you will notice Panerai use ( T.M ) not the ( R in the circle ) .... T.M means trade mark, and it is not registered. Having the R in the circle is a registered trade mark, and far easier to sue.
To copy the Panerai case is not an issue, as its a style, not a functional design.
A screw down crown perhaps could have been a patent once, but not the crown itself.

So it must be very hard, and not worth it, for Rolex and Panerai to attempt to sue. I am sure, they would if their lawyers said its a win , win.
I for one am all for affordable watches, and am often mystified by prices of some brands, but perhaps there is some price we are paying for these copies, and yes gents, copies i say!
Perhaps it goes someway to answering the price of a Panerai?
I know Wall-mart has built into their prices a certain amount allowing for theft! So why not these companies, perhaps guys, we are a little to blame?

I understand what you are saying but we aren't talking chinese knockoffs, well at least not with the LM7 or Sandoz. My Sandoz had a 2824 movement...not asian. The LM7 also has a swiss movement. And again, not branded with Omega or Rolex. And I don't believe the majority of people that wear a LM7 or, such as myself....the Sandoz are trying to make people think they are wearing a Omega or Rolex. I personally love the look of the Sub. Am I going to spend $4000+ on one.....probably not anywhere in the near future. So I had a very nice watch at a reasonable price with a swiss movement in a design I liked. Now I could have had my wife pick up a suitcase full of FAKES in Thailand while she was there, but again...to me that is the difference. Blatant fakes and branded as such. And yes, cheap chinese movements. And just on a side note, I have a Marina Militare with a cheap asian movement that keeps very good time. Actually better time than the 2824 in the Sandoz.

bodypeersur1 wrote:

Now I could have had my wife pick up a suitcase full of FAKES in Thailand while she was there, but...

...you wanted her to come home...

porschefan wrote:

bodypeersur1 wrote:

Now I could have had my wife pick up a suitcase full of FAKES in Thailand while she was there, but...

...you wanted her to come home...

That's why the fakes are still in Thailand.....LMAO!!!!

bodypeersur1 wrote:

I understand what you are saying but we aren't talking chinese knockoffs, well at least not with the LM7 or Sandoz. My Sandoz had a 2824 movement...not asian. The LM7 also has a swiss movement. And again, not branded with Omega or Rolex. And I don't believe the majority of people that wear a LM7 or, such as myself....the Sandoz are trying to make people think they are wearing a Omega or Rolex. I personally love the look of the Sub. Am I going to spend $4000+ on one.....probably not anywhere in the near future. So I had a very nice watch at a reasonable price with a swiss movement in a design I liked. Now I could have had my wife pick up a suitcase full of FAKES in Thailand while she was there, but again...to me that is the difference. Blatant fakes and branded as such. And yes, cheap chinese movements. And just on a side note, I have a Marina Militare with a cheap asian movement that keeps very good time. Actually better time than the 2824 in the Sandoz.

Funny that, as i had a Sea Gull watch, that keeps perfect time, better than my COSC Panerai ! I was surprised, however, my Panerai still works, my Sea Gull is in bits on my watch table.
LM7 has an ETA, but where does the rest come from?
To be honest with you, an ETA 2824 is very cheap to buy, and if yu buy hundreds, then even better deals can be had. The cost little more than a Myolta Movement. I know i have spelt that wrong, and i am sorry, but i am not bothering to look it up tonight.

When i say Chinese knock offs, i am referring to Asian made watches, using a reasonably priced decent 2824 movement. Just because the ngine is ok, does not mean that the rest is too.
http://www.thedivewatchconnection.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1518&hilit=58+clicks
That link is a good example of whats lurking beneath.

But yes, i can see your point about a 4K sub, i wouldn't either!

Well I guess if you consider $150 cheap for a movement then you may well be correct. Either way, my point being you consider these watches fakes because they look like the original design. Many of us do not as they are not branded with the original company logos, crown markings, case markings, etc. This has been argued over and over with very few, if anyone actually changing their point of view. And just for the record, my Marina Militare is still running strong!

bodypeersur1 wrote:

Well I guess if you consider $150 cheap for a movement then you may well be correct. Either way, my point being you consider these watches fakes because they look like the original design. Many of us do not as they are not branded with the original company logos, crown markings, case markings, etc. This has been argued over and over with very few, if anyone actually changing their point of view. And just for the record, my Marina Militare is still running strong!

Yes , but its a topic i love to get into.
150 dollars, sure, but thats retail price. That is not what the watch company paid.
With current exchange rate, how about 60 bucks, and thats only buying a few.

1) I dont consider these watch fakes, as they are not trying to use a different name.
2) I dont consider them to be Homages either, as they dont honer or respect the company of the original.
In most cases anyway.
3) I do however, see them as copies. And some very misleading ones from time to time as well.
Copies, knock offs, all the same to me.
The price of these things are relative to ones income, sure. I dont argue with the fact, that for most people a Rolex or Panerai, is out of reach. If you really must wear the style, then a copy , eg MM, is the way to go.
While it keeps good time, and looks the part, at the right price, it was still lazy.

I for one, will be super pissed, when someone copies my watch a year or two after its released, and just puts their own name on the dial. I wont see it as paying Homage, i will see it as Intellectual Property theft, and if i can, i will sue.

Omega made a Homage, not that LM7 thing.

But, we can interpret honor and respect to a watch, in different ways, so no one is truly wrong, and as you correctly point out, this topic goes round and round.
But perhaps if you thought about your watch design, thought about going to the bank and putting up your house, and the 3 years your Wife gave you the " Look" as the business, slowly came together, only to have someone use it, just as some success comes to you.
Dont think you all would see it the same way then.

Proud of the way this topic has been handled...

Differing opinions, but no one acting like as ASS...VERY COOL!

t20569cald wrote:

So how long after the original is this acceptable?
What of Omega ploprof, and that 58 click Ocean 7 rip off, is that OK?

Where then Gents, do we draw the line?

Don't have a problem with the Ocean7 model. Not my speed and I'm not a fan of that company at ALL but I saw no problem with the model.

Anomaly wrote:

Great discussion...

Do homages, copies, "look a likes" hurt the original manufacturer (NOT replicas)?

Most people who buy these do so because they can't or choose not to spend "that kind of money" on a watch, so is the original manufacturer really losing anything?

Another question, how many companies have sued over the issue?

Did Omega sue LM7...?

I think Panerai went after some MARINA MILITARE makers...?

Is it folklore or did Rolex really go after Invicta...?

No offense to our Panerai owners but:

Panerai went after a WHOLE BUNCH of folks for things that are just plain asinine IMHO. Made them look like bullies and wussies at the same time, again IMHO. The $100-200 homages do NOT eat into their sales. No one that is spending $6000+- is looking at the Homages INSTEAD of the real thing so that argument is plain bunk. Panerai went after WIS forums for allowing pics to be posted - wuss and bully IMHO.

Panerai patented their crown guard, ok. But when it ran out they also went and Trade Marked it, NOT ok - IMHO. Patents are for useful items, trademarks are for iconic items that are NOT useful. You are NOT supposed to be able to have both on the same thing, particularly serially instead of concurrently.

I am NOT for replicas or rip-offs. However, as has been said here - there is nothing new under the sun. It’s a very slippery slope trying to draw the line at anything other than replicas plain and simple.

t20569cald wrote:

So how long after the original is this acceptable?
What of Omega ploprof, and that 58 click Ocean 7 rip off, is that OK?

Where then Gents, do we draw the line?

We draw the line as individuals.That way,bias doesn't show its ugly head like it always does when this topic comes up.

yamahaki wrote:

t20569cald wrote:

So how long after the original is this acceptable?
What of Omega ploprof, and that 58 click Ocean 7 rip off, is that OK?

Where then Gents, do we draw the line?

We draw the line as individuals.That way,bias doesn't show its ugly head like it always does when this topic comes up.

Perfect!

. . . It seems to me that the more I learn, and the more I see in regards to variety in watches . . . my position changes.

. . . Perfect example right here . . .




. . . when I got the watch, I thought it was the greatest thing since water in the desert. Now, I still like the watch, it is good looking and good quality wise, but I am more aware and it isn't quite the same to me. . . . . still the same watch, not the same WIS . . . .

wagon wrote:

. . . not the same WIS . . .

That should be your sig line, Randy.

porschefan wrote:

wagon wrote:

. . . not the same WIS . . .

That should be your sig line, Randy.

. . . Tim, that is one hell of a compliment!!!! I have learned more since I started to pay attention here than I may have EVER learned elsewhere . . . . AND I still feel free to have my own taste and opinions.

. . .

wagon wrote:

porschefan wrote:

wagon wrote:

. . . not the same WIS . . .

That should be your sig line, Randy.

. . . Tim, that is one hell of a compliment!!!! I have learned more since I started to pay attention here than I may have EVER learned elsewhere . . . . AND I still feel free to have my own taste and opinions.

. . .

Best compliment you could give the place...thanks Randy!

Anomaly wrote:

wagon wrote:

porschefan wrote:

wagon wrote:

. . . not the same WIS . . .

That should be your sig line, Randy.

. . . Tim, that is one hell of a compliment!!!! I have learned more since I started to pay attention here than I may have EVER learned elsewhere . . . . AND I still feel free to have my own taste and opinions.

. . .

Best compliment you could give the place...thanks Randy!

I think most of the watches are being copied only, may be possible that
you might not be knowing that it is copy of which old model. And I
don't thing anything is wrong it , atleast they are doing some
modification to it. You should feel better while wearing it, this only
matters.

one reason I like this forum is that you fellows are mature enough not to get on your horse and pontificate your views about copies, fakes, replicas etc..

I, as Anomaly had mentioned, applaud you all. I did buy 2 Omega replicas out of sheer curiosity, as there was so much ado about how terrible they were. I had to see for myself! ..not take others' opinions.

Conclusion: with the better made ones, I am impressed with the basic build and Chinese movements as the DG28...auto, handwinding and hacking.

Again, I am not getting into the argument over patent infringement etc....

I will wear them not to show off or mislead but because they are decent watches for the buck..(the ones I bought).

A forum member asked me to send him my PO orange bezel version so he could compare the fake to his recent Real one and then post on the WUS Omega forum for others' edification. I had no problems sending him the fake haha!

I did own the same Sandoz sub style that Duff has...but sold it to an Alaskan fellow who loved it.

If you want to inform yourself of Chinese watch movements and the hidden fact that more and more Euro watches are installing, for instance Seagull movements into their Swiss models, go to WUS Chinese Mechanical Watch forum......this is what I did to educate myself on them.

For instance the Zodial Oceanaire uses a Claro-Semag movement, which is in essence a Seagull ST16 slightly modified to meet the Swiss standard for so called Swiss movement text on the dials. Even the ETAs are often modified Chinese movements!

Thanks.Really nice to have my response changed to fit your all knowing,all seeing ego.